Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-71.82.164.213-20150409225706/@comment-71.82.164.213-20150410074406

Nice, I like the discussion. Much better than what I've seen throughout the threads I've read on the topic which made me compelled to write something as I've seen no one provide any logical evidence to support Kirito in the debate, just a bunch of people who like one character or the other.

Before continuing, I think it is fair to note that I have not read the light novels in any way, and therefore can only provide evidence of what I know (plus a couple major pointers that are well known in general about the light novels). What I know is from the anime, I'll have to take your word on the Light Novel descriptions. With that in mind I'll continue.

TUSF wrote: This goes back to your first Fact, about the context. Yuuki has not played this game very long, and simply didn't know that you could cut through spells, using Sword Skills aimed at the "core" of the spells. It wasn't that they were amazingly too fast, it just wasn't thought to be possible without another spell.

Kirito is just more aware of ALO's mechanics than Yuuki. But Yuuki is in fact faster than Kirito. Side-content has shown that Kirito has trouble keeping up with Asuna's fighting style, and has to resort to tricks and feints to even land a hit, while Yuuki was able to keep up with her for a good long while, and saw through all of her attacks.

I acknowledge that I posted this as a speculated fact and therefore it merits discussion. I think that this is something that is potentially open for interpretation, unless you can specifically reference the material noted in your assessment (also, when you say side, are you referencing non-canon material then?). In any case, I still think my original speculation is correct based on other evidence provided in the show thus far. For one, Yuuki has been playing the game long enough to have failed beating a floor's boss & being ready to face the next one. Considering the length of time it has taken for them to go through each floor, I would suggest this means she's been playing for at least a little while. They call her "completely new" when referencing her battles under the tree, but that would completely contradict their later story, so it's more likely once again that the characters are simply wrong about how long she's been in the world. Considering she's in there 24/7, basically only sleeping as a distraction, she has probably put as many hours in a month or so of playing as Kirito had in several months. This is, of course, speculation, but I think it's generall fair. Yuuki, to me, seems surprised at his speed, not on his ability to break in-game mechanics (especially when his gf is on the line).

One last point, even if she was faster, speed is only a single attribute. There's no way to know for sure, but I would suggest Kirito is stronger and his weapons are better (Excalibur). Whether or not you believe she's got a faster reaction time (the only thing that determined who got the dual-wielding in SAO or not), it does not definitively state which of them is a better sword-fighter, although it is an interesting conversation.

TUSF wrote: "Going easy" on someone isn't what he does. He simply doesn't take every fight as having "dire consequences" and thus, doesn't fight desperately/seriously. The EXACT same thing can be said about Yuuki just having fun in her duel, and not needing to fight for her life.

This isn't something we can measure, without throwing them into a life-or-death fight. Him going easy on females, is only to the extent that he won't do any more than necessary, seeing how against Musketeer X, he merely killed her mid-sentence, as she was introducing herself to him.

I've stated Yuuki would improve in more dire circumstances as well, but would she be able to defy an entire system's programming logic just through sheer willpower? Maybe, but without that specific feat you could only guess at that. We've seen Kirito actually do it.

I'm going to have to also point out that he 100% went "easy" on Sinon, he literally was going to let her shoot him. If that's not going easy on someone I don't know what is. We've seen him time and time again show very little pride in proving his dominance over other characters. So, take scenario 1 (Sinon really wants to win a game for reasons unknown) and scenario 2 (this girl is terminally ill), which one of those two sound like they would induce more "you know what, this isn't as important to me as it is to you" feelings?

Just as a last thing for Musketeer X, that was in a life-or-death situation with Sinon, but I do get your point.

TUSF wrote: This is also a context-specific outcome. Even with one sword, Kirito could have fought Eugene, had he used an equally powerful sword that didn't phase through his original sword. Using a second sword allowed Kirito to counter Eugene's phasing ability. Not make him stronger.

I generally agree (although having two swords to hit someone is obviously going let you do more damage). I'm not sure I understand the counter-point, my point is that Kirito has more stategic advantage with two swords than one. Would he beat Eugene with one sword if they were even? Sure. Would he then obliterate him with 2? Absolutely. If your point is to state that the phase ability of the sword is the reason the discrepancy was so large, then I agree, but still there's a clear additional advantage of him facing someone with a single sword and him being able to use two. Especially if he has stronger stats & more damage, she would have to play extremely cautiously because he could block more of her damage and simultaneously deal damage to her while she was defenseless. Think about it like this, how much better is Heathcliff with a shield than without? A second sword sacrifices blocking potential compared to a sheild, but it increases attacking potential. The difference in power is still there just in a different way, & the point is that he's on another level when he uses a second sword.

TUSF wrote: He DENIED holding back on Yuuki. There seems to be some kind of translation discrepancy here. Here's the line from the fan-translations of the novel:

"I didn’t go easy because she’s a girl. I really fought seriously. Really... At least until halfway."

The way this is worded implied that he fought her seriously, and then half-way through he didn't, but he also rejects that the reason is because she was a girl.

That's not what was said in the anime version I watched lol, but I believe you. What he said from what I watched (and I understand there are different subs) was essentially that he "didn't go easy on her because she was a girl, well, sort of." As you later find out, it seems likely that this is actually because of what he found out about her, in which case our two quotes pretty much line up. Basically, when he saw she was terminally ill, I didn't fight her seriously. Either way, my point is that he acknowledges that he didn't go even "casual" all-out on her.

TUSF wrote: Lets get this straight for a moment; this fight never occurred in the novel, other than a single line that mentioned it, with the only detail being that Kirito didn't use Duel Wielding. Thus the fight in the anime is just a portrayal by the Animators/Director of how they felt it happened. (even the fact she used Mother's Rosario)

HOWEVER, even going by the anime, Kirito would have lost by just a scratch or two, and Yuuki has enough health to survive a hit or two, even if directly.

I'm going to have to take your word for it here. I'll conced this point then (although I completely disagree with Kirito losing in the anime, the face she gives is a classic anime "well, I'm totally ****ed" face, not a "I'll survive & counter to win the match" face.  I'll leave it as "speculation," but it's implied in the anime that he would have won.  If they don't mention it in the light novel then I'll acknowledge that their duels are even when he's using just a single sword.

TUSF wrote: SAO was level based, while ALO wasn't. Get a high enough level, and you can solo mini-bosses, unlike in ALO. The only real difference between SAO Kirito and ALO Kirito is the level of desperation he held, and the absolute rule of "losing means death".

In the end, Kirito's comment was about Yuuki having much faster reaction time, which would have made her the owner of Dual Wielding, had she played SAO (and probably would have been able to cut bullets too, if she played GGO and used a sword/knife). Nothing in the show was said about who was a better swordsman or fighter, but the fact remained that the score between them is 2-0, with Yuuki in the lead.

What you fail to realize is that all fights are contextual, and you can't truly know who was better, and statistically, you'd need hundreds of fights to make out who was better, and a significant difference in the percentage of wins.

I'll leave this with a final thought, I think based on the evidence provided that we actually CAN know who was better by a significant margin. Sure, could there have been an extra line that said Yuuki actually was the God of Blades & could grow to be 100 feet tall and kill every player in ALO with a single swipe? Why not? Being realistic though, you can indeed infer who was better without needing 100s of fights to come to a conclusion. Based on the evidence provided, they are even with 1 sword a piece. As she hasn't shown the ability to use two swords, that means Kirito would gain a massive advantage by having a second sword. Finally you add in his acknowledgment (and your... acknowledgment of his acknowledgment) that he took it especially easy on her, you've got a fairly solid case that she wasn't on his level going all out.

In a discussion regarding two fighting entities, you take their feats, the evidence provided by the show, and their particular encounters and you come to a conclusion. Sometimes that conclusion is that they're both too even to tell, but this is not the case here. It would be like Batman vs. Superman and saying Batman would win because they fought once when Superman didn't use any of his powers at all and Batman won.

Yuuki has no feats to show she could keep up with Kirito if both were fighting in a bloodlust battle, in my opinion. I do appreciate the response though.